tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6745003136564123305.post7148688280625706098..comments2024-02-25T02:50:53.858-08:00Comments on HoseMaster of Wine™: Game Shows, Loring Wine Company and 17 Wines--And Still Getting Paid Nothing by the WordRon Washam, HMWhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11238869156614617705noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6745003136564123305.post-65706726715332646692013-02-13T22:26:01.408-08:002013-02-13T22:26:01.408-08:00a lot things we don't associate with oak - lik...a lot things we don't associate with oak - like mouthfeel, density, and intesity - are also a direct result oak barrel aging.<br /><br />and, contrary to popular belief, gruner veltliner rocks. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13849290999060380035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6745003136564123305.post-35225085925310517292013-02-13T21:00:22.011-08:002013-02-13T21:00:22.011-08:00Some Chablis does see wood as does some Champagne....Some Chablis does see wood as does some Champagne. I would argue the best Chablis sees no wood and many Blanc de Blancs are surperior without any sniffs of oak either. I often taste white wines of the Cote D'Or and wonder why people want them to have the characters they say they revile in California Chardonnay so much. This is not to throw a blanket over any of these areas merely talkinga bout the larger pictures and what people seem to prefer about each. Cris Whetstonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00580386535702366380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6745003136564123305.post-50967732350018432392013-02-13T16:45:21.526-08:002013-02-13T16:45:21.526-08:00Cris,
Plenty of Chablis see some neutral oak. And ...Cris,<br />Plenty of Chablis see some neutral oak. And many Champagnes as well. Samantha?<br /><br />Many, many years ago a winemaker (wish I could recall who) said to me, "Oak is catnip for humans." Some truth in that, red or white wine.<br /><br />With hundreds and hundreds of winemakers throwing around vineyard designates, it will take many lifetimes for anything to make sense in California. So it goes.Ron Washam, HMWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11238869156614617705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6745003136564123305.post-78473294731012497822013-02-13T11:16:15.353-08:002013-02-13T11:16:15.353-08:00TL:DR
...but I will say having known Brian person...TL:DR<br /><br />...but I will say having known Brian personally and having watched him purvey his wines he is true to his style. He doesn't try to play both sides with people. He tells people straight up what his wines are like and how they are meant to be drunk. He doesn't mince words about aging and elegance. I'm glad we have a voice like that making wines and being successful at it. It's not a style I reach for often but sometimes it's perfect. Thanks for giving them a fair shake Ron. While I might agree about a particular wine more often than not with the whole anti-flavor-wine-elite crowd I disagree with the message that is often broadcast. Something like this: "I often think that what "natural" wine promoters think is the opposite of "natural" wine is "Parkerized" wine. We humans do love to label shit."<br /><br /><br />On Chard and oak. Ya'll are nuts. Give me your Chablis before your Cote D'Or 90% of the time. As long as Chablis and Champagne exist the argument for oak on Chardonnay is dead to me. I will say that the argument aboutoak is far more interesting in red wines. How many people raving about their aged classic Euro wines are marking oak flavors versus fruit? How many characteristics identified as 'classic' in certain wine's terroir are actually those of wood? Question we may never know an answer to if we are honest with ourselves.<br /><br />There have been far more vineyards in California that have been called designates than actually deserve it. That's just growing pains though. As long as we hold Burgundy up as the wines of aspiration then we will see this phenomena. But I would also argue that we simply have no clue which places are best and which are pretenders. 90% of what is here is just too damn young to tellCris Whetstonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00580386535702366380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6745003136564123305.post-78275744712014008882013-02-13T10:09:41.520-08:002013-02-13T10:09:41.520-08:00I have a Gruner Veltliner in my cellar. We are loo...I have a Gruner Veltliner in my cellar. We are looking for someone to come get it out of there, but as usual, we call the contractors and they consistentlier don't show up. Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07322028233207741737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6745003136564123305.post-72886863990362205992013-02-13T08:41:01.313-08:002013-02-13T08:41:01.313-08:00Thomas,
Once again, you're wrong. Gruner Veltl...Thomas,<br />Once again, you're wrong. Gruner Veltliner sucks. And I haven't in my entire life purchased one. So there. I'm more consistent. Can one be more consistent? Or is it consistent-er. Words are so hard. <br /><br />Maybe if they used some new oak...<br /><br />Ron Washam, HMWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11238869156614617705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6745003136564123305.post-37742504293297715012013-02-13T08:29:58.126-08:002013-02-13T08:29:58.126-08:00Tell you the truth, without realizing it, I have n...Tell you the truth, without realizing it, I have not bought a Chardonnay wine in ages. At least I am consistent.Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07322028233207741737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6745003136564123305.post-4201971602835737162013-02-13T08:29:21.230-08:002013-02-13T08:29:21.230-08:00Charlie:
Yes to that, and by the way, Chardonnay ...Charlie:<br /><br />Yes to that, and by the way, Chardonnay sucks!!!Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07322028233207741737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6745003136564123305.post-54323085091081558752013-02-13T07:50:56.721-08:002013-02-13T07:50:56.721-08:00My dear Mr. P--
F'''in A, right. You ...My dear Mr. P--<br /><br />F'''in A, right. You are not supposed to like things we don't like.<br /><br />Is that not the premise of all winetasting? <br /><br />Whoever said that there can be no disagreements in matters of taste has never tasted unadorned Chardonnay.<br /><br />Oh, and let me be serious for a moment. Whether one likes unadorned Chard or not; whether one prefers Riesling to Chard; are truly up to the beholder.<br /><br />But, there is really no point in arguing that Chardonnay does not become a deeper, more complete, more complex wine when handled judiciously. One can like that style or not. This is your choice.<br /><br />Suggesting that complexity, balance, depth, completeness are of little or no value is an entirely different thing altogether.<br /><br />I think you have already agreed to that point. It is a very different point from what you may prefer.Charlie Olkenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02513782687786106137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6745003136564123305.post-22939635953299668412013-02-13T07:48:08.026-08:002013-02-13T07:48:08.026-08:00Shit.
Ron's going poodle!!!
EVOShit.<br />Ron's going poodle!!!<br /><br />EVOEric V. Orangehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10421713709476706024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6745003136564123305.post-29985311207780179552013-02-13T07:29:40.017-08:002013-02-13T07:29:40.017-08:00Well, it seems that you are trying to tell me what...Well, it seems that you are trying to tell me what to like...<br /><br />To my palate, the malleability of Chardonnay invites the taste of everything that is added to or done to it. <br /><br />"...would undoubtedly be less than that without a talented winemaker's use of wood."<br /><br />Not my preference.Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07322028233207741737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6745003136564123305.post-66368722677383406252013-02-13T00:11:04.471-08:002013-02-13T00:11:04.471-08:00Amen to that, brother.Amen to that, brother.Charlie Olkenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02513782687786106137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6745003136564123305.post-71012099358331656402013-02-12T19:09:48.228-08:002013-02-12T19:09:48.228-08:00I'm with Charlie, and Samantha, when it comes ...I'm with Charlie, and Samantha, when it comes to Chardonnay. Having just tasted at In Pursuit of Balance (a stupid premise, but a great tasting) and having the likes of Littorai and Varner and Mount Eden Chardonnays, I don't care what they're doing to the grape, they should just keep doing it. We can overanalyze the crap out of those wines, but they're beautiful, aromatic, crisp, and splendid wines, and would undoubtedly be less than that without a talented winemaker's use of wood.Ron Washam, HMWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11238869156614617705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6745003136564123305.post-31721788782196381482013-02-12T17:50:36.418-08:002013-02-12T17:50:36.418-08:00Thomas--
You have hit upon the ultimate contradic...Thomas--<br /><br />You have hit upon the ultimate contradiction with Chardonnay.<br /><br />It has character in its unadorned style, but it is simple and rather monosyllabic.<br /><br />Unlike the aromatic whites, save for Viognier (which qualifies as an aromatic white for me), Chardonnay becomes much more interesting, complex, complete when seasoned.<br /><br />Trying to argue that wine is complex and thus should have no seasoning may suit your palate, and it may suit most lighter whites, but it does not, in my humble opinion, suit Chardonnay. <br /><br />And while we can agree on the concept of each to its own, you have already agreed with the rest of us here that Chardonnay grows up when it uses a little makeup. <br /><br />And it does not have to be Dolly Parton by analogy to be complex, deep, interesting. Charlie Olkenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02513782687786106137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6745003136564123305.post-47147781749674842292013-02-12T16:31:35.555-08:002013-02-12T16:31:35.555-08:00Thomas,
I loved that Cabernet Franc, reminded me o...Thomas,<br />I loved that Cabernet Franc, reminded me of Chinon and we now stock that wine at our store because of you. That being said, fuck was I grateful you lugged those whites around. Samantha Duganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05214278596698698245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6745003136564123305.post-86017101887297785022013-02-12T13:21:35.640-08:002013-02-12T13:21:35.640-08:00Brian and Ron,
What I mean by "handle" ...Brian and Ron,<br /><br />What I mean by "handle" is heavy use of oak and ML on a white wine. Try that on aromatic white varieties and you will ruin them, at least to my taste.<br /><br />My point is that Chardonnay needs the help, mainly because it doesn't offer much to begin with (again, to my palate and also to my nose I suppose).<br /><br />In any case, here I reside in the Finger Lakes region. I would be tarred and feathered if I didn't say I prefer clean, crisp, acidic whites over the bigger stuff...and I really do. Maybe it's a case of cellar blindness or maybe I came here because I prefer it (actually, I couldn't afford Ca. How do you do that Brian?). <br /><br />Sam, <br /><br />You kill me with kindness, but while you adored those crisp whites, you also liked that Cabernet Franc, didn't you? Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07322028233207741737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6745003136564123305.post-82489493006127302662013-02-12T12:25:41.713-08:002013-02-12T12:25:41.713-08:00Brian,
Don't think I've ever heard a Fifth...Brian,<br />Don't think I've ever heard a Fifth Growth Bordeaux called a vineyard designate before. But I get your points. I think my question is more about devaluing the whole notion of vineyard designation by designating so many Pinot Noirs and Chardonnays (and Zins) on labels. I was at a recent tasting (IPOB) and one winery had four v-d Pinot Noirs, three of which I thought were the same damned wine. And that's not an uncommon experience. So do you choose vineyards to buy from with the intent to designate them, or pass on vineyards you think aren't distinctive, or do you get the fruit cheaper if you put the guy's name on the label, or?...I don't know. I'm sure every winery differs on how single vineyards are determined. Yet I sometimes think many of them need to spend more time listening to respected alternate opinions about whether a vineyard deserves designation or not.<br /><br />My Gorgeous Samantha,<br />Oh, Baby, I'd happily get a room, though I'm often told my farts are my best feature.<br /><br />As to writing tasting notes, I'm flattered by everyone's remarks, but wholly unconvinced.<br /><br />I think Brian summed up the argument for oak on Chardonnay pretty well. It's not necessarily overmanipulating. It seems Thomas' troubles are more with ripeness, not winemaking procedures.Ron Washam, HMWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11238869156614617705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6745003136564123305.post-53193329034255741352013-02-12T11:46:50.932-08:002013-02-12T11:46:50.932-08:00Thomas - I think Gabe got it right. While people ...Thomas - I think Gabe got it right. While people may think that Chardonnay (and I assume you mean the more oaky, buttery versions) are handled more, it's not really true. Sure, the amount of new oak used is a choice, but there's no more handling than putting all the wine in neutral oak. And allowing the natural process of ML to occur is as "hands off" as it gets. Intervening to stop the ML process is handling - as is the resulting requirement to filter. <br /><br />When it comes to our Chards, we press the juice to barrel, ferment it, allow it to go thru ML, and bottle it unfined and unfiltered. We don't heat or cold stabilize them either. That's about as unhandled as wine gets :)<br /><br />Brian Loring - Loring Wine Companyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01839055051402467378noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6745003136564123305.post-13304073161344706792013-02-12T11:44:08.787-08:002013-02-12T11:44:08.787-08:00Fuck, I am so far behind now! There was something ...Fuck, I am so far behind now! There was something about French wine lovers, farting and getting a room or some junk...gonna skip that. Thomas was agreeing with me, well now there's a switch, it's usually me agreeing with you kid. Oh and Thomas, I adore you, always have but even more so after you brought all those lovely, crisp white wines to share with me in Sonoma when it was like 100+. But I have to say that I agree with Sir Charles here too, I prefer Chardonnay with some oak on it, even when very, very neutral. I think the wines not only taste better, I think they need it....unless of course we are talking about Chablis which we aren't. Nice to see Gabe standing his own around these parts, unashamed of his penile fetish and stuff. Good for you Gabe! Oh and Brian, I think the plural of Nuits is Nuits. Oh and Ron, I agree with everyone here, I think you write beautiful tasting notes. Kinda wish I were a wine and I could have you write about me. I love you! Wanna get a room? Hold the farts though. Samantha Duganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05214278596698698245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6745003136564123305.post-25644705011592092002013-02-12T11:36:43.642-08:002013-02-12T11:36:43.642-08:00When it comes to "all those single vineyard d...When it comes to "all those single vineyard desginated (SVD) Pinots in California", I think we sometimes forget how big California is. <br /><br />The entire Côte de Nuits could pretty much fit within many of Cali's Pinot AVAs... like Santa Lucia Highlands or Sta Rita Hills. And the number of designates in the Côte de Nuits far out number those in SLH or SRH. Us Cali guys really need to create more SVD wines just to keep up with those French dudes and dudettes ;)<br /><br />IMHO, what makes it seem like there are sooooo many California SVD Pinots is that the list is constantly growing. It's hard to keep up with all the new sites and wineries producing wines from them. While an area like Burgundy has a much greater density of designated vineyards than we do in California, their list is static. Not much has changed in any of our lifetimes, so it's easier to get your head around it. There had to be a point way back when where people complained about all the new sites in Burgundy. We're just going thru that same phase - in multiple instances of our own Côte de Nuitses (is that the plural?).<br /><br />As to whether or not a vineyard deserves to be designated, I feel that as long as it has something ineteresting to offer, that's good enough. It doesn't necessarily have to be the best, as if that's even possible to determine objectively. Our French pals have created grading systems to try to do that, but even those lowly Fifth Growths in Bordeaux still get to be designated :) And it's not as if every vineyard in California is designated - there are lots of vineyards that supply fruit that goes solely into AVA or county blends. <br /> Brian Loring - Loring Wine Companyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01839055051402467378noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6745003136564123305.post-11799155005641880092013-02-12T11:13:20.204-08:002013-02-12T11:13:20.204-08:00Charlie,
Fermented wine is already quite a comple...Charlie,<br /><br />Fermented wine is already quite a complex food, before the winemaker gets his or her hands on it. Therefore, I don't accept your food/wine analogy. <br /><br />Beyond the fact that all grapes are unique, can someone explain why most white wines are not handled as extensively as Chardonnay? <br /><br />Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07322028233207741737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6745003136564123305.post-43752643008306813532013-02-12T11:05:37.412-08:002013-02-12T11:05:37.412-08:00Hey Brian,
Thank you for sending me all that wine....Hey Brian,<br />Thank you for sending me all that wine. The luxury of tasting them one at a time, spending time with them, having a meal with them, is a luxury a sommelier or a wine buyer isn't afforded. It does make a difference.<br /><br />I think your wines are expressive of the regions and vineyards (though the topic of vineyard designates, and why a vineyard "deserves" one is interesting to me), and in your style. I could certainly tell the Gary's Pinot Noir from the Keefer easily, and felt they were clearly from those esteemed plots of land. As Quizicat suggested, tasting lots of Gary's alongside each other shows how the character of the vineyard can shine in many different interpretations and styles.<br /><br />Wow, Calera Zin! That's a long time ago. Hell, I remember drinking Kistler Cabernets too.<br /><br />Thanks for chiming in, Brian. Givin' the HoseMaster some cred!<br /><br />Ron Washam, HMWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11238869156614617705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6745003136564123305.post-55870813594433066602013-02-12T10:41:12.446-08:002013-02-12T10:41:12.446-08:00Ron - Thank you so much for taking the time to tas...Ron - Thank you so much for taking the time to taste and review all the wines I sent. I really didn't expect you to do that. I thought you might have some friends over, get sloppy drunk, post embarrassing photos on Facebook, and write a few notes on the wines (and friends) who stood out. <br /><br />And then to write such an amazing set of reviews? Wow! You really are good at reviewing wine. Like you pal Charlie at CGCW, what you wrote was cogent and helpful to the consumer - both to those who've tasted our wines and those who haven't. You steered the right people to the right wines, and helped other avoid spending their hard earned dollars on wines that might not work so well for them. To me, that's the mark of a completely suceesful review. One that neithers panders to nor potificates against a particular style - but rather recongnizes well made wine for what it is. So a huge THANK YOU for doing such a great job :)<br /><br />a few comments on our "style". While I agree we definitely have a house style that comes from processing all the fruit within each variety the same way in the winery, we feel what we do actually provides the best represenation of terroir since the differences in the wines are due to the site. Furthermore, we also feel what we do attempts to present the true terroir of each site. I know many consumers and winemakers would disagree. But that's our goal - terroir based wines - based on true California terroir, and not the terroir of somewhere a continent and ocean away. <br /><br />But please don't get me wrong - it's just our opinion of what terroir and perfect ripeness means. I respect all winemakers who seek their vision and stay true to their beliefs. I'm a huge fan of Calera (I've been buying Josh's wines since he made Zinfandel), Au Bon Climat, and all the other wineries who paved the way for the rest of us in California. Totally differnt approach to defining California terroir. Which leads to a great diversity of wines, which makes Brian the Consumer very happy :)Brian Loring - Loring Wine Companyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01839055051402467378noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6745003136564123305.post-66009632501735561332013-02-12T09:18:32.967-08:002013-02-12T09:18:32.967-08:00Gabe,
The luxury of a wine blog is that there are ...Gabe,<br />The luxury of a wine blog is that there are no space limitations. Also, there are no IQ tests. I find all the wine blogs that review wines to be dreadfully boring, and I mean horrifically, major stroke-inducing, monumentally boring. With a blog, there are no excuses for that. <br /><br />A few months ago I talked about this in a post (The Golden Age of Wine Writing?). So I set out to write about wines in a way that might be more engaging than a foolish list of adjectives followed by a number--which sounds like my college sex diary (both pages). I've written three, and I still haven't figured it out quite yet. But thanks for saying nice things about it. I sort of plan, as much as I plan anything, to do it monthly, depending on the wines, and if I have anything to say about them.<br /><br />And saving up for a dick decanter is certainly a worthy cause. I decant mine as often as possible.<br /><br />Marcia,<br />I'm flabbergasted by all of your kind words. Thank you.<br /><br />This piece took a long time to write because it took a long time to taste the 17 wines and actually think about them. It's a luxury I can afford. Wine does trigger odd associations in our heads when we taste and drink it, and I try to listen to those associations in my head and then include them. I learned a LOT of that from My Gorgeous Samantha and her brilliant posts that relate her life to wines. I just have a far more twisted mind and a wacko's sensibility.<br /><br />That you liked it, Marcia, is very important to me. Thank you.<br /><br />Thomas,<br />My personal preference for Chardonnay certainly falls in the camp you share with Samantha and others here. But I can appreciate the big, oaky, tarted-up Chardonnays too. There's something fun about their overabundance of everything. I usually drank about a glass and a half of each of Brian's Chardonnays and that was enough. I'd finish the bottle the next night.<br /><br />Chardonnay unadorned is on the simple side, I think we all agree, but like I said in the piece, that's why I don't much like it naked. Yes, it gives me an impression of the grape and some insight, but I like it better all dressed up and slutty most of the time. I want battery acid, I can always drink Verdicchio in a fish bottle.<br /><br />Charlie,<br />I read your reviews of Loring's Chardonnays in CGCW (because I always read your reviews) and I think we are pretty much on the same page. The wines are intentionally over the top, but, in that style, they're damned good. Hey, George Clinton and Parliament are way over the top, and I love them. When it works, it works.<br /><br />Ron Washam, HMWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11238869156614617705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6745003136564123305.post-20845949608456782302013-02-12T08:55:17.576-08:002013-02-12T08:55:17.576-08:00Thomas--
I guess I have a very different understa...Thomas--<br /><br />I guess I have a very different understanding of Chardonnay--and all grapes and foods for that matter.<br /><br />I accept that a plain poached chicken breast can be appealing to some--no salt, no pepper, no nothing. But I am far less interested in it than when it is cooked with seasonings, comes loaded with flavors such as in cacciatore or au vin.<br /><br />Plain pasta is okay for some. Please serve me mine with a good Bolognese, thanks.<br /><br />Same with Chardonnay. Nothing wrong with a good, unadorned Chardonnay. But, most Chardonnay takes well to the judicious use of oak, ML, etc. The Loring wines are an interesting case in point because some will find them over the top just as some in my family fine Penne Arabiata to be stronger than they want.<br /><br />So, I very much beg to differ with you. Rather than being overrated, Chardonnay is a grape that wants the talented hand of the winemaker to allow it show at its best most of the time.Charlie Olkenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02513782687786106137noreply@blogger.com